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[AGU!] Angelica's bad karma

 
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SpiderBraids
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:20 am    Post subject: [AGU!] Angelica's bad karma Reply with quote

Or, "Why does Susie sing so much? Revisited". chuckangie calls bullbleep on Susie singing at the talent show in IKD. Again.

====

SpiderBraids: Previously polled just more than two months ago on the old board, here's the question from that poll again, slightly rephrased.

Basically, if you had been writing this ep, would you have let Angelica sing despite the zit? Arguments:

For:
* Angelica won the role fair and square from those who did audition
* Listen to when she's walking into the shower
* It's high time someone else got the spotlight instead of Susie...
* ...especially that most of her plots seem into involve singing (even "Rats Race" wouldn't have been the same without the knowledge that Susie wants to be a great singer)...
* ...and that the writers didn't even bother giving her new material like they did for Angelica

Against:
* Susie's a pretty good singer, and that's why she gets all these singing plots
* How fair did Angelica win the role anyway? The story was set up so to appear that Angelica prevents Susie from auditioning, and this is her bad karma
* Angelica's zit... DUH!

Looking back at this post (referring to a general AGU! speculation thread I'd made) I can't believe I was so right about IKD. Here's the parts of interest:

"Never mind that Angelica has already won a singing audition competing against Susie ("Interview with a Campfire"), AND that Susie has already missed a previous audition ("Runaround Susie"). They'll probably conveniently forget about those minutiae."

They did indeed forget about these, but that's shooting fish in a barrel.

"If this (Angelica giving the mike to Susie) happens, the next question would concern her choice of song. I can see the song from "Runaround Susie" being used, since she was going to audition with that song in that ep... or we could be getting a new song altogether (the latter somehow sounds more likely)."

And of course, they did use "Runaround Susie" instead of a new song. Whoa.


Poll results for "Would you have let Angelica sing?":

Yes 40%
No 40%
Maybe 20%



Angelicafan: they are teenagers they try to act like cool ones too
even when she was little Angelica was like a popstar
back then too but only in the movies such as Rugrats In Paris and Rugrats Go Wild
do you agree with me SpiderBraids

(Didn't she also sing in the talent show ep "The Winner Is"?)

chuckangie: Who wrote runaround suzie anyway? Chances are whoever it was, was most obviousely faced with creative preasure from KC to have it done KC's way and caved. I can imagine how the draft looked like before it got butchered by editors.

In classic Rugrats you dont get any crap stuff because the writters had the guts to keep their vision against the producers'. You dont have that anymore in AGU... thus the characters suffer and so does the plot they build from them.

Edit:

Oops. I meant Its Karma Dude. I was thinking about mentioning Angelicas audition in Runaround Susie and how KC made her sound retarded yet in IKD, she beat all competitors.

SpiderBraids: I can imagine how the draft looked like before it got butchered by editors.

Could make for a great fanfic: Behind The Scenes of "It's Karma Dude!"

"In this draft, you have Angelica sing despite her zit. Isn't Susie supposed to be the good singer?"
"Duh, that's why Angelica keeps her from auditioning?"

(Umm... drawing a blank here.)

chuckangie: For Angelica's kind of personality, the only reason she wants to sing is to beat Susie. Yet Angelica cares nothing for singging at all unlike Susie who genuinely does. Infact it applies to alot of things between their rivalry.

In IKD, none of these basic motives were referenced. The episode made it look like both Angelica and Susie were deserving for the role (regardless of the circumstances such as the zit and broken answering machine). But in the corniest way, Susie sang in the end simply because of the history of her character's use in already aired episodes of AGU.

Ppl thought it was ubber cheap. But thats what happens if you dont let the character's personalities dictate the direction of the plot for a character drivern story line.

SpiderBraids: In IKD, none of these basic motives were referenced.

Umm, wouldn't Angelica's underhanded trick imply trying to beat Susie by preventing her from even competing?

chuckangie: In IKD, it didnt look like Angelica wanted to beat Susie in singing. It looked like she just wanted to sing herself. KC made it look like Susie is standing in the way of Angelica's dream to stardom. Which should not be portrayed this way. Thats why fans got a little annoyed in the end when Susie still sang despite not earning the privilege to do so.

I could see the only way Angelica would ever consider auditioning for singing in front of people is if she heard Susie was in it FIRST. And thats when you make Angelica cheat.

Tho Susie did not compete in the audition, Angelica beat the other competitors fairly. Therefore she has the right to sing. But in the end KC ASSUMED Susie would beat everyone eles in the audition including Angelica. Thus she sings without even ever auditioning. If this is the case, then whats the purpose of the audition if anyone can just jump on stage and sing?

It looks biased and elietist. It also looked like Angelica got undeservingly screwed.

SpiderBraids: If this is the case, then whats the purpose of the audition if anyone can just jump on stage and sing?

For some reason, I feel that Ryan Rodriguez (one of the auditioners, from what I'm told):



(Hey, why am I thinking "Timmy Turner in glasses"?)

was thinking the same thing also when he was watching Susie, as well as "Hey I don't recall her at the audition..."

(Wonders if chuckangie has ever seen the Hey Arnold! ep titled "Phoebe Takes The Fall": just replace Angelica with Helga, Susie with Phoebe, a singing audition with an in-school academic contest, and the school talent show with a city-wide academic contest.)

In IKD, it didnt look like Angelica wanted to beat Susie in singing. It looked like she just wanted to sing herself.


But as things stood here, Angelica had to beat Susie to get a spot in the talent show. (Also, see "Interview With A Campfire", and replace "a spot in talent show" with "the lead spot in the camp musical".)

Tho Susie did not compete in the audition, Angelica beat the other competitors fairly. Therefore she has the right to sing. But in the end KC ASSUMED Susie would beat everyone eles in the audition including Angelica. Thus she sings without even ever auditioning. If this is the case, then whats the purpose of the audition if anyone can just jump on stage and sing?

It looks biased and elietist. It also looked like Angelica got undeservingly screwed.


But to take this point further, Susie was undeservingly screwed by Angelica FIRST (or at least that's what IKD makes it to be). This also casts a shadow over how fair we can consider Angelica's audition win, since she prevented her biggest rival from competing against her. Does that sound fair to you???

chuckangie: But to take this point further, Susie was undeservingly screwed by Angelica FIRST (or at least that's what IKD makes it to be). This also casts a shadow over how fair we can consider Angelica's audition win, since she prevented her biggest rival from competing against her. Does that sound fair to you???


Angelica not telling Suzie about the audition isn't considered as cheating yet the episode made it look like it and made it look like Angelica was at fault.

Logically it is not Angelica's obligation to tell Suzie about the audition even if Tommy requested it. Tommy himself could have directly told Suzie about it. Obviously the audition is no secret either so anyone in school may mention it to Suzie sooner or later. So that would mean the only way Suzie would not have known anything about the audition is because it was her own bad luck.

It wasnt Angelica's fault the the answering machine was faulty. It wasn't Angelica's fault Suzie did not see any of the posters advertised all over school. It wasn't Angelica's fault not a single person on campus did not mention anything about the audition to Suzie. It wasn't Angelica's fault that Kimi had no speaking roles in this episode thus preventing her from ever mentioning the audtion to Suzie. Bottom line is Angelica owes Suzie nothing.

Regardless of the circumstances, Angelica did beat the other competitors. That means assuming Suzie is a better singer than Angelica, Angelica is still a relatively better singer than everyone else in the audition. Angelica still deserves the right to sing at the end instead of Suzie. Rule-wise.

A more less controversial ending IMO would be for Angelica to simply apologize for neglecting to tell Suzie and Suzie forgives her. Suzie then shows blessing and support for her friend's performance and no one in the audiance even pays attention to her zit.

But no. The episode just made Suzie look like an elietist that gets whatever she wants over an underdog like Angelica.

SpiderBraids: Angelica not telling Suzie about the audition isn't considered as cheating yet the episode made it look like it and made it look like Angelica was at fault.

Note that I said "(or at least that's what IKD makes it to be)."

With your above reasoning, you are, for all intents and purposes, saying, "Yes, Angelica should have sung at the end" (or, with the way you're saying, "Let someone else have the spotlight for once"). Which leaves a few questions:

* Why is the only vote in the poll so far for "Maybe"?
* Why are we (chuckangie, SpiderBraids) the only ones posting in this thread?
* Have you ever seen the Hey Arnold! ep I mentioned earlier, with a "similar" plot? Why do I not hear anyone complaning that Helga shouldn't have just quit?

chuckangie: No I havent seen that HA plot. But the way I assume Bartlet's style would be with Helga is that she down right cheated Pheobe.

Angelica just got lucky with a broken answering machine and a blissful Suzie. What did Helga do?

SpiderBraids: I could run it down here... but instead, I'll point you to a Google Groups post where I've already done so (it's the third story in this post).

And now there's a "No" vote. Would the voter care to step out forward and explain his/her reasoning? (Meanwhile chuckangie, you still haven't answered the first two questions.)

chuckangie: Q1: Well its coz I guess no one knows

Q2: No one really likes AGU. Alot of people still believe AGU is a growing stain on Rugrats classic reputation. Been to ToonZone lately? In a way I agree with them. I just dont have the guts to go all spammer like they do. Sourire

SpiderBraids: I'm a member of Toonzone Forums, actually. But this is a Rugrats forum, so where's the AGU! fans?

chuckangie: Rugrats fan doesn't automatically mean AGU fan. It actually surprised me how many people on toonzone respect Classic Rugrats (pre 1st movie) but had absolutely no feelings for anything Rugrats after Dil came around. Thats including AGU.

Just look at the "worst nicktoons" thread.

http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=145115&page=1&pp=20

Every post about AGU has something to do with someone saying it ruined Rugrats. They don't directly say its a bad show, they just say it ruined Rugrats. And more often than not, the post is from a Rugrats fan.


SpiderBraids: Okay, I sent chuckangie a sound clip from the ep in question, and here's his opinion on why IKD and PTTF are different:

(Okay, the sound clip was the entire frickin' story. Thanks to compression techniques, the entire story's audio fit in a 600 kb file, although at somewhat tinny quality.)

I think theres a BIG differences between Susie and Angelica's case compared to Helga and Pheobe.

According to Mr. Simmons, Pheobe is the "alternate". Meaning if Helga can't or decides not to participate, Pheobe is legal to take her place. Pheobe did not break any rules whatsoever.

Angelica and Susie is different. Susie is NOT a legal alternate nor a second runner up to Angelica in the audtion because she NEVER auditioned.

The Hey Arnold version was much more convincing rule-wise. And since it was Helga who directly influenced Pheobe (unlike Angelica who did nothing to Susie) Helga definately made the right move to let Pheobe take her place.


Wonders what That Don Guy thinks makes IKD inferior to the original (besides "It's a rip-off")...

Okay, anyone else care to sound off in this thread?

SpiderBraids: Guess not, eh?

Here's some more fuel for this rather weak fire: Perusing through a transcript of the ep, I found that Susie (after missing the audition) accused Angelica thusly: "I know you Angelica, you'd do anything to claw your way to the middle." And of course she turns out to be right on the night.

Also, in one scene, there is this exchange:
Dil: Just undo the bad thing that you did.
Angelica: And lose my big solo? You are crazy.

So, she knows that it was a bad thing for her not to tell Susie about the audition, even though she then wouldn't have won the spot.

Also, regarding the thought that someone else could have told Susie about it, think this way: if you'd signed up and knew that Susie was certainly going to beat you, would you tell her? I doubt it.

Okay, chuckangie, your turn.

Poll now stands at 50% for maybe, 25% for yes, and 25% for no. Would the voters explain their reasoning, please?

chuckangie: Fine. SInce you asked so nicely.

Dil: Just undo the bad thing that you did.
Angelica: And lose my big solo? You are crazy.

So, she knows that it was a bad thing for her not to tell Susie about the audition, even though she then wouldn't have won the spot.



Its not about what Angelica did, but rather its about what she did NOT do. Even if she were to take Dil's advice, theres nothing she could do about it?

The auditions are already over at this point. There is no way she could demand a reaudition for Susie as it would be completely unair for all the other participants. Almost as unfair as letting Susie sing in her place just coz she felt guilty.

If I were Angelica, I would've went straight to Charlotte. We'd go to a docter and have that zit removed. End of story.

Also, regarding the thought that someone else could have told Susie about it, think this way: if you'd signed up and knew that Susie was certainly going to beat you, would you tell her? I doubt it.


Tommy knew about the audition and he didn't sign up. Chances are there were alot of other kids on campus that knew about the audition YET did not sign up. Now if one of these unnamed non participating kids KNEW Susie likes to sing, wouldn't it make more sense if they told her about the audition?


SpiderBraids: Its not about what Angelica did, but rather its about what she did NOT do. Even if she were to take Dil's advice, theres nothing she could do about it?

The auditions are already over at this point. There is no way she could demand a reaudition for Susie as it would be completely unair for all the other participants. Almost as unfair as letting Susie sing in her place just coz she felt guilty.



But (in my mind at least) she could have approached Pangborn and told him that she prevented Susie from auditioning, and also point out how Susie was selected for FameQuest ("Runaround Susie"). OTOH... scratch that, since you did say that they're misportraying by making it look like that doing nothing about telling Susie is why she misses the audition.

If I were Angelica, I would've went straight to Charlotte. We'd go to a docter and have that zit removed. End of story.


Note that:
1. After school, Angelica goes straight to the pharmacy for zit cream, and from my personal experience, it's worked fine for me.
2. At the end Charlotte mentions that she's setting up a dermatologist appointment for Angelica.

Tommy knew about the audition and he didn't sign up. Chances are there were alot of other kids on campus that knew about the audition YET did not sign up. Now if one of these unnamed non participating kids KNEW Susie likes to sing, wouldn't it make more sense if they told her about the audition?


It's possible that some of the non participants assumed that Susie was going to audition and thought, "What's the point in signing up if I'm gonna get my butt kicked?" Still, this makes sense.

And would someone else like to join the discussion?

I get snarky on this eppy.

chuckangie: But (in my mind at least) she could have approached Pangborn and told him that she prevented Susie from auditioning


Wrong logic. Angelica did NOTHING to prevent Susie from auditioning. Almost as much as she did nothing to allow Susie to audition.

====

Wondering if chuckangie visits the new board... he might have a few more cents to chip in... especially on my fanfic Cella's Diary (and yes, that fic has a character calling bullbleep on Susie singing w/o auditioning).

Also wondering what chuckangie, if he was say Tommy's classmate, would have said the second he saw Susie on stage.

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